Comparing HD Cameras

WDITrent

WDITrent

Member
Hey everyone-

I'm thinking about purchasing a new HD camera to replace my low-quality JVC camcorder. The cameras I'm looking at are outlet cameras, being sold initially for about $1,4000 and now being sold for $800. To me, that seems like a really good deal. However, I am not very educated about HD cameras, so I want some advice- Is it worth buying something like this? I'm going to try to post a link to a page about the camera I'm talking about.
 
My parents for christmas bought me a Hitachi Blu-ray HD HDD Camcorder. I found out that it has a very low quality like VHS quality. I emailed hitachi and they said in some words, you want better quality then you'll have to go outside. As soon as they said that I was like forget and we are now selling it on amazon for $699. Hopefully we'll be able to pay off the new camcorder that we ordered which is the Sony HDR-SR10. I have tested this camcorder and LOVE IT. Actually amazon has this camcorder brand new for about $500!!! I don't know if it is still like that since we bought it but it is a VERY good deal for an excellent camcorder.
 
I have a the serie of what you got darthvader92... I have a HDR-SR10 and all I say its that that is a great camera when there is high levels of light, but when you use it at night, you will see lots of balck dots in the video. Anyway, its a great option for someone that is using is in good light conditions.
Now Im looking foward that HVR-a1u that its a good one in low light conditions too (but this one costs arround $2600).  :-X :D
 
I`m in this too. I`m looking at the new Panasonic HDC-SD100 and educating myself as I go. Like most things you get what you pay for. I learnt that when I shot a wedding with 2 DV cams - one was my nice 3 chip one, one a cheap model. The difference was like chalk and cheese. Here`s some personal pointers:

For dark shots you want a nice big chip, be it CCD or CMOS. 3 chip cameras sacrifice the ammount of light that can fall on each chip since they are physcially smaller to fit inside a consumer model. Having said that, I`m aiming for a 3 chip model since a) good processing to improve low light has come on leaps and bounds and b) in half decent light 3 chip models are better than a single chip model.

I`m also going for CMOS instead of CCD since now there is hardly any difference in quality (finally) - and CMOS dosn`t give the telltale vertical stripe you get with bright points of light (eg fireworks)

This model records to SD card. I don`t like the thought of (ab)using a hard drive in the parks, at the risk of loosing many days footage. Plus having to spend more to backup/empty it whilst on a trip. As darthvader mentioned, compression shows up the most when you have a plain, dark screen or heavy contrasting objects moving quickly. What I`m still looking into in how much HD per gig I can get; this model uses the newer AVCHD format - compressed HD which is uncompressed before using. With the price of SD cards falling and the same pros as using tape but with non of the cons I`m almost convinced.

Finally, how good is the artificial intelligence? How good can it focus, adjust to lights levels, hold detail against sudden changes in light? How easy is it to use the manual settings? Personally I`ve had to factor in manual focus ring, external mic input and hotshoe, viewfinder as well as screen, optical not digital stabiliser....

Finally, avoid digital zoom like the plague and don`t worry about anything above 30 frames a second since domestic TVs can`t show anything above 29.97fps (NTSC) or 25fps (PAL).
 
I am using a Sony HDR-HC5 1080i camcorder. It wasn't the cheapest of the bunch, but not very expensive at the time I bought it. It is a HDV miniDV camera. I will list some things I like and some things I don't like:

I like the following:
It performs ok in low light conditions
It has a fireworks preset that works great (no focus and lighting issues, maybe you can find my footage in Martin's Holiday Wishes tribute)
It has a spotlight preset which works nice when taping stage shows (I needed to change lighting settings by hand on my old camera, otherwise faces were just white spots)
It has a CMOS chip
Carl Zeiss lens
Sony battery capabilities are nice
Tape instead of harddrive (SD wasn't a real option 2 years ago)

I don't like the following:
Touchscreen only (no scroll button, HC7 does have that), but not a real issue
No external mic input (it does have some kind of hotshoe which I did not look into)
Audio auto gain was better on my old cam
No frame rate settings (to prevent flicker on certain preshows ;-), although I was able to tape One Man's Dream almost flicker free)
Steadyshot acts up sometimes with closeups.

I am still planning on releasing some of my footage.

Cheers,
Dajatje
 
As Daja says, his camera is a great little model. I can vouch for the quality of his day and night footage. Sadly, HD DV is almost non existant at consumer level now; I`d be looking at 15% more in cost at least for a comparable model that uses tape.
 
marni1971 said:
As Daja says, his camera is a great little model. I can vouch for the quality of his day and night footage. Sadly, HD DV is almost non existant at consumer level now; I`d be looking at 15% more in cost at least for a comparable model that uses tape.
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HD DV is one of the reasons I went with my Canon HV30, the ability to use tape.  From what I understand, while the HD DV codec is somewhat more limited than the AVCHD codec, I still prefer the ability to "archive" my footage on tape.  Also the ability to quickly load a new tape in the machine and continue instead of offloading the footage is really a bonus.

If I understood the process correctly, with AVCHD you need to copy and then convert the footage into something usable, vs just a capture with HD DV.

I can't wait to get some vacation footage and start editing it for real.  I don't think I'll be disappointed though..
 
I love my Canon HF-100. It's a flash based camcorder that uses h264 encoding at 17mbps(the HDV/DVC/etc equivalent of 34mbps theoretically). It's the exact same as the Canon HF-10 except doesn't come with the internal 8gb card so you just buy your own which is a lot cheaper than the couple hundred dollars in price difference.. No one's quite sure why they priced them like that heh. It's since been replaced by the HF-11 which is the exact same but goes up to 25mbps which is apparently the limit that h264 can go to for this purpose(and again that's the equivalent of 50mbps on HDV/DVC/etc).

It has full manual controls for the most part and they're easily accessible compared to most consumer cameras but not as on-the-fly manipulative as a prosumer camera would be. Only criticism is that it's so small and light(which is a good thing) because it doesn't use tape and have a tape player inside so it can be a challenge to hold steady when shooting hand-held.
 
kirky said:
If I understood the process correctly, with AVCHD you need to copy and then convert the footage into something usable, vs just a capture with HD DV.
Click to expand...

If I am not mistaken, adobe premiere cs4 series (and elements 7) will be able to handle AVCHD directly.
 
Worm, can you detail the editing process?  Just out of curiousity...  Sorry if this thread is taking a turn off topic...
 
the HF-11 which is the exact same but goes up to 25mbps which is apparently the limit that h264 can go to for this purpose(and again that's the equivalent of 50mbps on HDV/DVC/etc).
Click to expand...

it's all theory .. it all depends on how well the realtime encoders work
 
dajatje said:
kirky said:
If I understood the process correctly, with AVCHD you need to copy and then convert the footage into something usable, vs just a capture with HD DV.
Click to expand...

If I am not mistaken, adobe premiere cs4 series (and elements 7) will be able to handle AVCHD directly.
Click to expand...
Indeed - I`ve just upgraded to Elements 4, and if I go the AVCHD route will upgrade again to 7 via Adobe - which will accept the format right off the memory card. I`ll burn one DVD with the AVCHD file as a pure backup too (much like I keep my master tapes today).
 
JPWDW said:
I have a the serie of what you got darthvader92... I have a HDR-SR10 and all I say its that that is a great camera when there is high levels of light, but when you use it at night, you will see lots of balck dots in the video. Anyway, its a great option for someone that is using is in good light conditions.
Now Im looking foward that HVR-a1u that its a good one in low light conditions too (but this one costs arround $2600).  :-X :D
Click to expand...

So would you say that the problems that I had with the hitachi I will have with the Sony?

 
darthvader92 said:
JPWDW said:
I have a the serie of what you got darthvader92... I have a HDR-SR10 and all I say its that that is a great camera when there is high levels of light, but when you use it at night, you will see lots of balck dots in the video. Anyway, its a great option for someone that is using is in good light conditions.
Now Im looking foward that HVR-a1u that its a good one in low light conditions too (but this one costs arround $2600).  :-X :D
Click to expand...

So would you say that the problems that I had with the hitachi I will have with the Sony?
Click to expand...
Have a look at the tech specs; look for Lux level. You want it to go down to at least 1 with no lighting, night mode or infra red. If it`s above 3 stay away.
 
http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&productId=8198552921665161560&langId=-1
What would you say about this camcorder? I, as well, am looking for something good for low-light situations. Would something like this do well? Also, I found this, which uses a cassette: http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&productId=8198552921665255695&langId=-1
...but it's a little cheaper and has different benefits. So what do you think?
 
WDITrent said:
http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&productId=8198552921665161560&langId=-1
What would you say about this camcorder? I, as well, am looking for something good for low-light situations. Would something like this do well? Also, I found this, which uses a cassette: http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&productId=8198552921665255695&langId=-1
...but it's a little cheaper and has different benefits. So what do you think?
Click to expand...
I've learned a lot here: www.camcorderinfo.com

HC7 - http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Sony-HDR-HC7-Camcorder-Review.htm
 
My editing process is:

Record footage/Connect camera to computer
in final cut pro I go to Log & Transfer, which shows a list of clip files and I can transfer them into either Apple ProRes or Apple Intermediate Codec.
I edit using this and export it accordingly

The codec it transfers into does so at an extremely high bitrate(one's higher than the other I forget which). I still have the original avchd files which are really small by comparison to keep as my backup, I'll always be able to retransfer them so I don't need to keep the large version files, and when apple switches to native avchd support I can even use them directly. I am really not worried about transcoding issues degrading the quality between the avchd->Apple Codec step. If you're a purist it still shouldn't detract you since I'm sure FCP will support native AVCHD soon anyways and you can just switch out what files your timeline's media are pointing to, or use the newest Adobe I guess.
 
Thanks...  How about the time it takes?  When I was looking, it appeared that it would take like 2x the length of the clip to get it editable.  So, a 1 hour clip would take 2 hours (or so) to get into a format that's editable.  I remembe rthinking, well, with HD DV, I can do that in one hour (just the capture).

That's all I'm wondering...  Thanks again!
 
WDITrent said:
http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&productId=8198552921665161560&langId=-1
What would you say about this camcorder? I, as well, am looking for something good for low-light situations. Would something like this do well? Also, I found this, which uses a cassette: http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&productId=8198552921665255695&langId=-1
...but it's a little cheaper and has different benefits. So what do you think?
Click to expand...
The first only goes to 2 lux (not good) without additional lighting and the second doesn't even mention it (just says it has the night shot facility).
My camera does 2 lux and it's way, way worse than my old VHS-C (that did 1 lux)
As martin said, look for not more than 1 lux minimum if you want the dark rides.
I find that the Sony cameras also have a rather tight infra red beam these days.
With my Sony Hi-8 I could get a clear night shot of the ramp in POTC DLRP (very dark) and a lot of detail. With my DV, it's a small area which looks like a torch is shining on it.
The Hi-8 one also seems to supplement low light conditions by adding just a little infra red (but without making it B&W or obvious) automatically - only found out when filming the end of PM when the monster appears over the doom buggy and you see it in the mirror - a little red light on the front of the camera.
 
i my self got the canon HV-30 for 599$ new.  now they just came out with a HV-40 and the only difference is true 24p.  it's minidv so the picture quality is better IMHO.
 
HD cameras don't seem to be able to match the low-light levels of standard definition camcorders yet due to the increased pixels and small sensors. Levelmaker99 has some great dark-ride videos well lit and in color, but in standard definition. Some good HD consumer camcorders for low-light according to camcorderinfo.com are the HV20 (miniDV) and the HF10 (AVCHD and no viewfinder), with improved lighting at 30P and 24P. The HG21 has Canon's updated versions coming out this year should hopefully be even better, but unfortunately none of them seem to have viewfinders...
 
HD cameras don't seem to be able to match the low-light levels of standard definition camcorders yet due to the increased pixels and small sensors.
Click to expand...

and it's getting worse ..the new linup has more pixels and less size .. it's goin down for the low light consumer level I guess
Some good HD consumer camcorders for low-light according to camcorderinfo.com are the HV20 (miniDV) and the HF10 (AVCHD), with improved lighting at 30P and 24P.
Click to expand...
My HD videos are done with an HV20 .. so you can see for yourself how the picture is

Canon's updated versions coming out this year should hopefully be even better.
Click to expand...
for the NTSC modell it's added another progrssive mode and the BLC key is now customizable .. thats all ..
 
Look good but I can't find the cheaper ones in a UK site but I did find this
http://www.kmraudio.com/catalogue/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=okm&x=0&y=0
Anyone brave enough to ride with a dummy head ;D
 
You could probably attach the mics to a wide mount to the camera so it would match the video movement.

I did some research on low-light HD cams in the pro range. Sony PMW-EX1 to EX3 have a typical minimum illumination of 0.14 lux; might be worth a rental to try it out on dark rides at Disney.
 
cocomonk22 said:
You could probably attach the mics to a wide mount to the camera so it would match the video movement.

I did some research on low-light HD cams in the pro range. Sony PMW-EX1 to EX3 have a typical minimum illumination of 0.14 lux; might be worth a rental to try it out on dark rides at Disney.
Click to expand...
PMW-EX1(img1).jpg

Not really covert now is it?  ;D
 
I haven't posted here in AGES, but thought I would go ahead and make a brief post. I am on a MAJOR budget nowadays, so getting a regular HD camcorder is out of the question for me for a number of years. However, last Christmas I received a cheap Aiptek camcorder that has a little bit of optical zoom... (not much like 2 or 3x) but has the ability to record 1080p. It does great for the little bit that I use it. and it is TINY. It records to a SD card. I recorded a performance of the Mainstreet Sax Quartet which turned out great.. Maybe I should upload it so you all can see.. It was a great performance  :P


Edit: Here is a sample, I didnt take the vid.. just found it
http://www.vimeo.com/375200
 
There was some discussion on those in the past:  http://www.mousebits.com/smf/index.php?topic=3804.0

 
;D I've just worked out how many days I could spend in the park for the cost of the cheapest of those cameras.
I wouldn't need to video, I'd be living there ;)
I may just dig out my old VHS-C camera again (that's under 1lux and took POTC really well) even if it's not HD.
 
The problem with a larger camera is you are pretty much saying "Hey, I'm recording here!" and questions may be asked about what you're doing this for, etc.  By using a "normal" camera, you attract less attention to yourself, plus, speaking for myself, I go to WDW on MY vacation, if I capture something of interest, that's great.  Going with a pro, or prosumer type camera would give me more to worry about.

But, no, covert isn't a requirement, but it's nice to be able to use smaller devices...  and, something like that is overkill when 1/2 the members here are begging for iPod compatible videos.  I usually go with DVD quality vids, and something like that would be overkill.  Next trip will be my first with a HD camcorder, so we'll see what comes out of it.
 
Still large, VERY expensive and (for my part) I'd feel a little obvious carrying something that size around and would worry that I would draw attention to myself (or be though of as a show-off).
I don't doubt it's an excellent camera though and I'm sure many use them in the parks.
I think you hit the nail on the head - it's similar in size to older cameras BUT with the modern ones being so small people (and CMs) would notice it more and it's very uncomfortable being asked questions.
Possibly the biggest reason for not getting one is the large  number of security guards I would have to take with me considering the cost is over 4000 (dollars/pounds - not much difference now).
I wouldn't have a moment's peace carrying that around :o
Fair enough if you are a pro film maker. Far too large and expensive for a tourist like me on a family holiday/vacation though
 
Goes to show you just cuz it's HD doesn't mean it's good!  The back of someone's head is just as irritating!

Sorry, I'm getting too critical.  Youtube videos aren't a good judge of quality, but camera work is camera work.  I've thought about getting a prosumer type camera.  Been there, done that, too rich for what I need it to do.  We'll have to wait and see what my HV30 brings us later this summer.
 
yeah those things are much too large .. thats why I backed away from buying a sony fx7

but look at this one ..

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/JVC-Introduces-Solid-State-Pro-Camcorders-for-2009-GY-HM100-GY-HM700-36111.htm

the second pic with the hand made me smile .. that cam is a lot smaller than simmilar looking cams  ;D


Here's some videos of it being used in the parks:
It's a Small World at WDW:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcWiPeHbc4E&fmt=22

Splash Mountain at WDW (not onride):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdawQStSNQ8&fmt=22

Reflections of Earth fireworks show at Epcot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLkRx2H03IM&fmt=22
Click to expand...

the first two have a very soft look to it .. and outdoor footage tends to purple fing) .. and the fireworks look awfull .. I don't know why (maybe wrong color profile while shooting.. or bad post processing)
 
They're getting smaller, which is good. I don't know about low light, though. The GY-HM100 has three 1/4" CCDs and the GY-HM700 three 1/3" CCDs. It'll be a few years before HD low light prosumer cams get small enough or consumer cams improve in low light enough that it will no longer be a hassle to record everything at the parks with quality picture.

So if someone reading this thread is thinking about purchasing an HD cam, I would suggest waiting for illumination in sub-1 lux to improve to film dark rides.
 
I don't know if consumer camcorders will ever be abled to record good low light .. whenever they make advancements on the imager level .. they just make them smaller or with a higher pixel count .. thus the lowlight won't improve..

the canon HV20/30/40 have 1/2,6" imager .. that is very large for a consumer cam
 
That`s why I`m torn between a 3MOS or 1MOS. CCD is out the door due to the vertical streaking with ultra bright light sources, but 1MOS cameras don`t offer everything I want. I`m minded to still go for the Panasonic HDC-SD100 for amongst other things its manual ring and viewfinder. I`ve survived 9 years with having to enhance dark ride footage so it`s nothing new if I still have to. Anything will be better than the AG-450 I carried on my shoulder in 1990!
 
dolbyman said:
the second pic with the hand made me smile .. that cam is a lot smaller than simmilar looking cams  ;D
Click to expand...
You lost me at under $4000   :)

I guess $399 IS less than $4000 but so is $3899 which is probably more like the target price.
 
Anyone check out the Sax vid I put up? Not bad coming from a $150 camcorder.... lol
:P

If I ever get enough saved up though, I will definitely get me a much better one.
 
dolbyman said:
I don't know if consumer camcorders will ever be abled to record good low light .. whenever they make advancements on the imager level .. they just make them smaller or with a higher pixel count .. thus the lowlight won't improve..

the canon HV20/30/40 have 1/2,6" imager .. that is very large for a consumer cam
Click to expand...

Yes, I think Canon is coming out with larger imagers on their new cams, so hopefully that will be a trend for the future.
 
kirky said:
dolbyman said:
the second pic with the hand made me smile .. that cam is a lot smaller than simmilar looking cams  ;D
Click to expand...
You lost me at under $4000   :)

I guess $399 IS less than $4000 but so is $3899 which is probably more like the target price.
Click to expand...

Sony has released a new camera $3,100 3CMOS with the EX EXMore.  It gets down to 1.5lux and is full HD.  it's the replacement  of the FX-1 that ad 3CCD.  that will be my next purchas since i like the canon hv-30 yet the other one will be more for what i need.  they shaved off an inch to the body of the FX1000 and it used the new G lens.  here s the link....

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665529584

a review
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/find/newsLetter/Sony-HDR-FX1000.jsp
 
This year's Canon XL H1A does better in low light than the Sony HDR-FX1000 actually, though it is $2,000 more expensive.

On the consumer level, check out the Sanyo Xacti VPC-HD2000. It has better low light recording than the Canon HV-30 or any other HD consumer camcorders released to date, not to mention the only one recording in 1080P at 60 progressive. However, image stabilization is very poor and there is no viewfinder, only an LCD screen.

Sanyo HD2000 vs Canon HV30 Low Light Comparison:
http://vimeo.com/4158952
 
Just so everyone knows, I purchased the Canon HG21. Reasonably priced, and great quality. I also have a UV filter, fluorescent filter, and a polarized filter. I've yet to use it at the parks, but next time I may shoot some footage for fun.
 
I bought an IR filter for the darkrides ..that filters out infrared camera lights ..although with 100$ not very cheap
 
Ha! I forgot about this thread. I took the plunge and got a Panasonic HDC TM300. All I can say is WOW.

It`s due for trial by fire (literally) on September 18th for RoE :)
 
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